I’ve written a lot of complaints about certain games we like not turning up on PC. With Double Fine recently saying “it’s not our fault”, DeathSpank parts 1 and 2 coming out and my own constant moaning becoming a running joke here at Mojo, I thought it was time I set the record straight about my opinion.
I think Double Fine’s games have to be on PC. Read on for my justification, and why it’s probably not going to happen just yet.
I am not just whining about not getting these games on my favourite platform (honest). However, I cannot deny I just simply prefer playing games wherever possible on PC. I own Psychonauts on Xbox and I’ve barely touched it, but I own three copies of the PC version (CD original, European DVD, and finally Steam version) which I’ve replayed several times to completion. If a game comes out on consoles and PC, I’ll always pick the PC version. Every. Single. Time. I just feel more immersed in that environment, it’s just me and it. With consoles there is always a slight disconnect, a distance.
Nevertheless, that’s the least important reason for my ranting. Nor is it the fact that since my consoles are in the UK and I’m here in China, the only way I’ll be able to play Double Fine’s games is via PC for now. No PC version, no play for me. I can’t even replay Brutal Legend, something I really want to do. If Telltale release a game on their site the entire world can play it, because everyone’s got a computer that can run them. Not everyone has a 360/PS3 and an HDTV with them at all times.
So my most important reasons then? There are two.
Number One: Sales
A rather surprising one perhaps, considering how narrow-minded publishers like to characterize the PC as a tiny market full of pirates.
This of course is complete tosh, particularly when it comes to digital distribution. Steam alone has more than 30 million users now, and indie developers are becoming real successes by using it. Introversion for example, makers of Uplink and Darwinia, only survive because of Steam after the Xbox Live version of Darwinia+ tanked. PC gamers have embraced digital distribution, and the success of Telltale (combined with their virtual abandonment of Xbox Live) should illustrate this quite clearly.
The sales are there, and it’s quite astonishing that companies like EA (DeathSpank, now out on PC) and THQ (who release basically everything on PC) wouldn’t want a PC version of Double Fine’s games or see the benefits for sales. EA I can sort of forgive since Brutal Legend was heavily advertised as a very consoley game (hack-n-slash with crazy driving), but THQ?
I actually think there’s not so much a lack of confidence in the platform as there is a lack of confidence in Double Fine themselves. Brutal Legend was, sadly speaking, a disaster for EA after the heavy marketing they put behind it, and the word-of-mouth was (for the first time in Tim’s history) actually negative. The game was heavily hyped and failed to advertise exactly what type of game it was, and the internet didn’t like that.
We love Double Fine, but publishers must be looking at them warily by now. They don’t want any risk or extra costs with them at all, so that means console-only – and not even all consoles. The trouble is that strategy won’t work. As a great man once said, “risk is part of the game if you want to sit in that chair”. He may have been talking about captaining a starship, but I think it applies to all walks of life. Low risk reaps minimal rewards.
And what the heck am I on about, there’s no f***ing risk in the first place! Quirky indie games are the PC’s forté!
Number Two: Lifeline
Sales are debatable. This is not. If you release a game on PC, it’ll live forever. Despite being surrounded in rights issues preventing a re-release, I can still play 1996’s System Shock on my modern PC. I cannot play 1997’s GoldenEye on my Wii.
Some games are lucky - Psychonauts was a cult hit despite not selling well, so it got an Xbox Live re-release and can be played using the system’s backwards compatibility. However, the same did not happen with Deus Ex: Invisible War, 007: From Russia With Love or Destroy All Humans 2. All major games that will never be played on current consoles. I’m still playing my copy of Day of the Tentacle from thirteen years ago (would have got it earlier, but that was the year we bought our first PC).
Think Brutal Legend will still be playable in 2023? Hell, it’ll probably be dead by this time next year. EA have a habit of shutting down multiplayer servers as they showed earlier this year, so I don’t expect it to survive much longer. Furthermore, backwards compatibility and re-releases on future consoles are by no means certain.
Still, at least you can definitely keep your PS3/360 and Brutal Legend disc and play it that way, right? Well, that doesn’t apply to Xbox Live/PSN games. Unless you permanently keep Costume Quest on your hard drive forever, as soon as the system goes offline there’ll be no way to get those games again. Unless they’re downloadable for the next system too of course… but then the console would have to be fully backwards compatible.
Steam, I do believe, will be around forever. The PC certainly will be anyway. If I buy a digital game from a secure, established website (say, this one) I think I’ll have the ability to double-click, download and play it any time on any of my next three computers.
Certain? Is anything certain other than death, taxes and LucasArts using the hiring of a new president to fire almost all their employees? Nevertheless I think it’s a safe bet that this generation’s Xbox Live will be dead before Steam.
This is why I want Double Fine to come back to PC. I don’t just want to play their games, I want to play them a decade from now. If I think in November 2020 “hmm, I feel like playing Costume Quest again, that was a great little game” I want to be able to do it.
Do you want that too Double Fine? Do you want your games to be available like classic books or films, so future fans of yours can easily go back and play your early games the way I did with Zak McKracken and Loom with LucasArts? Or do you want your games to be put on YouTube and never to be loved again? Some life.
Okay, it may not be your choice, but I want to play Costume Quest dammit! You just show that you can make successful games and the publishers will give you permission to make it for (in their view) “slightly riskier” platforms.
Wait, what’s that? Stacking isn’t going to be on PC either?
Chris ‘The Tingler’ Capel
tfarr
I've just yet to be convinced that in the world of game design they can excel in a genre other than adventure games.
We will continue to chat about adventure games old and new, but unless it has a direct connection to LucasArts we will not put a page up for it. You mentioned Penny Arcade Adventures tfarr - we covered that briefly, but certainly did not do a review of either game and you won't find it listed in our database.
If you want old-school adventures with a big LucasArts vibe that we haven't really covered, try Jolly Rover, Ben There Dan That (and its sequel Time Gentlemen Please), and Machinarium.
icanseestars
Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, Costume Quest are all very much console games derived from genres on those platforms like platformers and old school SNES RPG's
Out of all of them, not putting Stacking on PC makes the least sense.
Mojo is a form of publication and it has an editorial line and a core subject. You can question its editorial line all you want, but to change it just like that, would be rather arbitrary. I don't think it "blindly promotes" anything, it simply reports on the games it is supposed to be reporting about.
I don't think the site is forcing me to play the games it talks about. I haven't played any Double Fine or TTG, at all. I'll surely play some eventually, because I'm interested. I'm even interested in Brutal Legend which a lot of people didn't love at all and didn't have killer sales.
To judge a game (or a book, or a movie) by its sales alone, is quite silly. Most billion making games are nothing but the same old thing, endless sequels of unoriginal gaming. That is not to say that sales are meaningless, but to use it as your main orientation is to trust in the opinion of the masses, and lets face it, the masses are retarded.
So, is for instance Mojo contributing to the hype of the Back to The Future game? sure, but who isn't? all gaming sites are inevitably part of the huge machinery that is the videogame industry (Mojo is not even profiting for it.... wait, is it?). In fact Mojo is one of those few sites that doesn't mind putting reviews online "late" (a few weeks later than everybody else, which in videogame years seems to be like a decade), or to make retrospective analysis of old games.
The huge majority of sites is about reporting endlessly on the few bunch of huge mainstream titles, preview it, review it the second it comes out and then never ever talk about it again, because it becomes old and out of fashion in about 15 seconds. I'm not sure I would want Mixnmojo to become one of those sites.
Of course that doesn't mean you can't do a site about a broader spectrum of games without falling for those usual sins, but I don't see really interesting suggestions accompanying the criticisms.
MarioColbert
All you propose is that we always root for the winning team. That attitude lacks both backbone and dedication.
That's not what I'm proposing at all. What I'm proposing is that Mojo focuses on games that feature a good story, fun gameplay, and perhaps bring something unique to the table. You might not know if a game is going to meet those criteria until it comes out. In that case, you look at the past few games that particular studio has released and use them as a basis for comparison.
I'm proposing that Mojo broaden it's scope beyond the LucasArts veterans. I'm proposing that Mojo stop blindly functioning as an advertising mechanism for the studios that these veterans work for and instead consider the work at hand and promote it if the work itself has merit.
MarioColbert
Care to explain what PORTAL has to do with THE INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF MOJO? Because I can tell you what DeathSpank has to do with it - both IHOM and DeathSpank were made by the same guy. Psychonauts was made by another guy who had something to do with an IHOM in a game that we like...
I brought up Portal because it was unique and creative. Two qualities that *previously* were at the heart of what the LucasArts veterans were all about. Comparing Portal to DeathSpank was a means to contrast something unique against something redundant.
MarioColbert
Now, since I'm washing my hands from this discussion - you could be a troll for all I know - I'll make a few observations.
I've made valid and well worded arguments. I've also affirmed a fondness for this site. I'm not trolling. I'm disagreeing.
MarioColbert
1. Don't ever link someone to a website correcting their grammar if you're going to use an infamously incorrect grammatical structure "very unique" later on. It makes you look like a hypocrite at best and a jackass at worst.
That person's misuse of the word "don't" was enough to make me sick. Applying quantitative levels of "uniqueness" is a common practice in modern vernacular. It might not be faithful to the most rigid definition of the word "unique," but it's not a grammatical error. It's perhaps an incorrect use of a term.
MarioColbert
2. Sales figures amount to what, exactly? Because it's easy to "prove" how mediocre Psychonauts by yelling "sales" over "critical reception" and using "totally legitimate" sources like Wikipedia which do not take into account online sales of the title on XBLA and Steam. Schafer himself mentioned that the game made more money than most people yell about, because they keep citing brick-and-mortar sales without taking digital distribution into account. The same Wikipedia article you cite mentions an overwhelming critical response that argues with your "mediocre platformer" statement, but proves nothing at all at the end.
I can't imagine why Tim Schafer would defend the sales data of his game. At any rate, I would say that when something is good (if it's marketed properly) it experiences positive sales. If something is not all that great, sales will reflect that.
MarioColbert
3. Check your facts. For example, when someone tells you that Ron Gilbert is credited as a producer on Total Annihilation (not a designer) - you might want to check something like MobyGames or download the game really quick to make sure you're not saying "nay" to a fact. Saying "Ron Gilbet is not a producer, the DESIGNER OF THE GAME IS THE PRODUCER" is factually wrong and yet again makes you lose in the careful game of online etiquette.
Ok, yes.. Ron Gilbert is credited as producer. But the argument was that he and Tim haven't established (at least in my opinion) that they can design a good game outside of the adventure game genre. Note the word "design." Then you came in and pointed out that he produced Total Annihilation. Well, that doesn't mean he designed it. That's why I pointed out that Chris Taylor designed it.
MarioColbert
4. You are certainly free to continue arguing that we change from IHOM to an "arbitrary good games" website, thereby losing the remnants of old LA community in favor of flamewars regarding whether or not Blow's The Witness is going to be worthwhile.
I've never suggest that Mojo promote arbitrary good games. I'm suggesting that it broaden it's scope and stop blindly promoting bad games because of past connections.
Honestly though, why care about the old LucasArts crowd so much? If they release something worth our attention, sure (Telltale certainly has my attention). But after releasing flop after flop, is it right for Mojo to cling to them? I'm suggesting the application of some critical thinking.
MarioColbert
Since the core of your fallacious argument is "don't be excited about every screenshot released" and I happen to be one of the people who does get excited about every screenshot released, perhaps a common ground is not to be achieved.
A common ground is indeed not to be achieved. And you don't win an argument simply by calling the other person's argument incorrect.
tfarr
Are they still Mc Burgers? Sure. Are any of them good? Not really. Should McDonald's start selling other stuff, at least until their burgers are good again? Probably.
All you propose is that we always root for the winning team. That attitude lacks both backbone and dedication. Care to explain what PORTAL has to do with THE INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF MOJO? Because I can tell you what DeathSpank has to do with it - both IHOM and DeathSpank were made by the same guy. Psychonauts was made by another guy who had something to do with an IHOM in a game that we like...
Now, since I'm washing my hands from this discussion - you could be a troll for all I know - I'll make a few observations.
1. Don't ever link someone to a website correcting their grammar if you're going to use an infamously incorrect grammatical structure "very unique" later on. It makes you look like a hypocrite at best and a jackass at worst.
2. Sales figures amount to what, exactly? Because it's easy to "prove" how mediocre Psychonauts by yelling "sales" over "critical reception" and using "totally legitimate" sources like Wikipedia which do not take into account online sales of the title on XBLA and Steam. Schafer himself mentioned that the game made more money than most people yell about, because they keep citing brick-and-mortar sales without taking digital distribution into account. The same Wikipedia article you cite mentions an overwhelming critical response that argues with your "mediocre platformer" statement, but proves nothing at all at the end.
3. Check your facts. For example, when someone tells you that Ron Gilbert is credited as a producer on Total Annihilation (not a designer) - you might want to check something like MobyGames or download the game really quick to make sure you're not saying "nay" to a fact. Saying "Ron Gilbet is not a producer, the DESIGNER OF THE GAME IS THE PRODUCER" is factually wrong and yet again makes you lose in the careful game of online etiquette.
4. You are certainly free to continue arguing that we change from IHOM to an "arbitrary good games" website, thereby losing the remnants of old LA community in favor of flamewars regarding whether or not Blow's The Witness is going to be worthwhile. Since the core of your fallacious argument is "don't be excited about every screenshot released" and I happen to be one of the people who does get excited about every screenshot released, perhaps a common ground is not to be achieved.
I'm quite interested in Telltale, because of their connections with LucasArts -- and I will be a LucasArts fan forever because of their classic games -- but that doesn't mean I want to be part of the Telltale or DoubleFine cult.
Sometimes it's like we supported this football team, but the football team is doing very well in the leagues at the moment, and so instead we're all supporting... some ballet troupe or something, because the football team and the ballet troupe both came from the same area.
I did like Psychonauts a lot, and I think it's in many ways a continuation of Schafer's work at LucasArts, but of course it's not adventure, and it's not in the same mould the same as Schafer's LucasArts games. Nobody should feel guilty for liking Grim Fandango but not Psychonauts.
Why Mixnmojo should have developed in the way that it has is an interesting academic question. I think it has something to do with the desire for continuation, cults of personality, and, yes, a lot of pointless hype that becomes manifested into commercialism.
I'm also interested in a lot of other games made by other people. I love the guys at Valve, which I believe you also mentioned. And to read about those other games I usually go to other sites who cover the wide range of gaming. Off the top of my head I can think of Gamasutra, The Escapist, Edge, Idle Thumbs, Rock Paper Shotgun, Sexy Videogameland, etc.
After it came out and wasn't very good - then we find out (from Ron himself) that his involvement wasn't nearly what was advertised by (what was it... Hothead games?)
Likewise, I bought Psychonaughts back in 2004... because the coverage of this site made it seem like it was platforming but with an adventure element to it. Perhaps I came to an incorrect impression and the error was mine. The fact remains I would never have bought that game had it not been so hyped as a "From Tim Schaefer the guy who made DoTT and Grim Fandango!"
Ron Gilbert himself constantly marketed DeathSpank as a hybrid Diablo / Monkey Island game. He's a smart guy. He knows that when he says things like that, all the Monkey Island fans (such as myself) have our ears perk up. In reality, that game has next to nothing in common with SMI or any adventure game. I mean... dialog trees? The occasional "combine two obvious items together" mechanic?
valkian
While most of us surely have an appreciation, fanboyness and deep interest in whatever Gilbert, Schafer, Grossman, Tiller, etc, are involved in, Mojo would still talk about them even if we didn't because that is what Mojo is about: LUCASARTS AND THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED THERE AND ARE STILL MAKING GAMES.
I guess I'm asking the question... why? By your own admission you're saying that Mojo focuses on them because of what they did back in the day (when they worked for LucasArts). But if what they've done in recent years isn't all that great, shouldn't Mojo's focus start to become a bit more selective?
valkian
So you tfarr, are as confused as someone at McDonald's asking for a pizza, it doesn't matter what the McDonald's staff think about pizza (they probably like it), they are not going to give you any, because that is not what they do, there are plenty of other places that specialize in pizza. Would it be foolish of you to make a case of why McDonald's would be more interesting if it had pizza (McPizza)? probably not. Would it be foolish of you to criticize them for not having it? yes.
Perhaps more accurately, I'm walking into McDonalds... where one use to be able to get very tasty burgers. Unfortunately, they changed the ingredients several years ago and now make their burgers using third grade meat from kangaroos, rather than cows.
Are they still Mc Burgers? Sure. Are any of them good? Not really. Should McDonald's start selling other stuff, at least until their burgers are good again? Probably.
I'm not walking in asking for a pizza. I'm just walking in asking for food that I know ahead of time wont' taste like bat dung.
Gabez
Perhaps the thing to do is to not praise something until it's generally deemed worthy of praise, rather than praising something from the moment it's announced, simply because it has (long ago) association with something else that is deemed worthy of praise.
Ahh, I see what you are doing there.
Dear tfarr, what you don't get doesn't have anything to do with your personal appreciation of Ron Gilbert, Tim Schafer or whoever else you mentioned. It has everything to do with you not realizing what this site is about and what it revolves around.
It is in my understanding that Mojo is about LucasArts, and about former LucasArts employees releasing games. There are a lot of former LucasArts employees who went on to do a variety of things (maybe one day it would be interesting to write an article about them and what are they currently doing, wouldn't it, Mojo?), if all of them were involved in game making, Mojo would most likely talk about all of them, Michael Land and Vince Lee and many many more excellent people.
While most of us surely have an appreciation, fanboyness and deep interest in whatever Gilbert, Schafer, Grossman, Tiller, etc, are involved in, Mojo would still talk about them even if we didn't because that is what Mojo is about: LUCASARTS AND THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED THERE AND ARE STILL MAKING GAMES.
So you tfarr, are as confused as someone at McDonald's asking for a pizza, it doesn't matter what the McDonald's staff think about pizza (they probably like it), they are not going to give you any, because that is not what they do, there are plenty of other places that specialize in pizza. Would it be foolish of you to make a case of why McDonald's would be more interesting if it had pizza (McPizza)? probably not. Would it be foolish of you to criticize them for not having it? yes.
Gabez
Perhaps the thing to do is to not praise something until it's generally deemed worthy of praise, rather than praising something from the moment it's announced, simply because it has (long ago) association with something else that is deemed worthy of praise.
Exactly my point. That - and to limit one's scope to just those who (long ago) had an association with something else is sad when there are other games & studios out there (producing adventure games and non-adventure games) that really *are* worthy of praise.
MarioColbert
Sorry for a double-post, but this question is important. MOJO covers games from the moment they are announced. Would you mind giving us all some advice how to ensure that announced games that we have yet to play will be worthy of focus and praise?
Sure. Step one: Pick better criteria for choosing what games or studios to follow. Potential criteria might be.. I dunno, quality storytelling and gameplay. Don't limit yourselves to the studios of a few former LucasArts designers. There are plenty of worthy games to follow from studios that have had a string of successes that have no connection to Lucas.
I mean... take Portal. Here you have an incredibly unique gameplay mechanic... and what looks like a good story (from what I've seen of the 2nd title so far). The first Portal game was a success. Why not focus on the 2nd one? Compared to DeathSpank, Portal is a revolutionary title. DeathSpank is just a Diablo clone... it's a button smasher that doesn't bring much new or unique or creative to the table. To focus on DeathSpank instead of something unique like Portal, just because it's Ron's game is fanboyism.
Maybe... If a new game is coming out from a company that Mojo cares about, look at their past three titles before choosing to focus and promote the upcoming title. If at least 2 out of the 3 past titles have been successful and the new title looks promising - then focus on it. There's a difference between making selective choices of what to focus and promote and just blindly saying "Oh this guy was a janitor at LucasArts when Day of the Tentacle was released! His new game MUST be worth promoting!"
MarioColbert
This is like bitching about darktrain still covering all of the upcoming Underworld albums even though the last two "really sucked" according to your personal taste.
I'm not familiar with Darktrain or the "Underworld" albums... but I get the analogy. If the general consensus among objective listeners was that their past two albums weren't all that great... and I wrote for a site that promoted music, then I would take a "wait and see" attitude with Underworld's next album.
MarioColbert
So Psychonauts (not an adventure game) is not up to par according to your standard, as it has yet to convince you that Tim's game design outside of adventure games is worthwhile, right?
Yup. Psychonaughts was just an average to sub-par 3D platformer. It wasn't anything special. There have been countless platformers that are much better than it that have come out in the past ten years. The sales figures (which I quoted earlier from Wikipedia) agree with that opinion.
MarioColbert
Similarly, Gilbert producing Total Annihilation (that someone named Dave Grossman wrote for) further does not convince you that them dudes are incapable of creating non-adventure games. Or am I reading you wrong?
Ron Gilbert didn't produce Total Annihilation, Chris Taylor did. I never played it. True, Cavedog Entertainment was (at that time) a sub-division of Humongous Entertainment... but that doesn't mean that Rob Gilbert produced it. I played one of Chris Taylor's other games: Dungeon Siege... and that one was a real pile. The story mattered so little that you could kick the main starting character out of the party and it didn't affect anything. Also, the game practically played itself.
MarioColbert
Interesting. Whenever a band that you like a lot releases a CD you don't like very much, would you abandon their releases altogether and not consider listening and/or evaluating their future work?
Actually no. I like classic Metallica and haven't abandoned them, despite not liking several of their recent releases (Saint Anger and others). Sure, I'd give a new Metallica album a chance... but I won't blindly promote it just because it says Metallica on the album cover. After it's been released and I've evaluated it, then I might start saying "Hey, this is good stuff!"
I'm not saying that I / we shouldn't consider or evaluate new titles released by the folks who made the classics that we love. I'm just saying it's sad that Mojo seems to blindly advertise and promote them from inception to failure.
MarioColbert
You can call it fanboyism, sure. But I'm grateful someone is dedicated to aggregating the news dealing with people that fathered so many awesome things. Had the reviews for every new game those people made been glowing "haters gonna hate" things, maybe "fanboyism" would be a worthy critique. Remaining a dedicated fan who remains interested in what people he or she respects has to offer, however, is hardly a thing worth trying to shame others for.
At some point, if the people who fathered so many awesome things start fathering several not so awesome things... I think that one should approach new and upcoming things with a decorum of sensible hesitation. That's all. I think that where Double Fine and others are concerned... they've made enough flops that a "let's wait and see" approach is a reasonable attitude. Not a "Oh my god! Check out this super blurry screen shot from the yet to be titled, yet to be released nugget of awesomeness from a practically defunct studio up in Petaluma run by a guy who did the artwork for an adventure game that when it first came out, all of us fanboys pissed and whined about because it didn't look like the first two games! <deep breath>"
tfarr
This is especially true when you hold games like Brutal Legend, Insecticide, Costume Quest, DeathSpank, up against other new titles that are actually worthy of focus and praise.
Sorry for a double-post, but this question is important. MOJO covers games from the moment they are announced. Would you mind giving us all some advice how to ensure that announced games that we have yet to play will be worthy of focus and praise?
This is like bitching about darktrain still covering all of the upcoming Underworld albums even though the last two "really sucked" according to your personal taste.
Let me help you out:
http://kotaku.com
They never cover anything that doesn't deserve attention and praise.
tfarr
I think that both Ron and Tim are hilarious people. Tim in particular is a really funny writer. I've just yet to be convinced that in the world of game design they can excel in a genre other than adventure games.
Wow, that's, uh, quite a statement.
So Psychonauts (not an adventure game) is not up to par according to your standard, as it has yet to convince you that Tim's game design outside of adventure games is worthwhile, right?
Similarly, Gilbert producing Total Annihilation (that someone named Dave Grossman wrote for) further does not convince you that them dudes are incapable of creating non-adventure games. Or am I reading you wrong?
Interesting. Whenever a band that you like a lot releases a CD you don't like very much, would you abandon their releases altogether and not consider listening and/or evaluating their future work?
You can call it fanboyism, sure. But I'm grateful someone is dedicated to aggregating the news dealing with people that fathered so many awesome things. Had the reviews for every new game those people made been glowing "haters gonna hate" things, maybe "fanboyism" would be a worthy critique. Remaining a dedicated fan who remains interested in what people he or she respects has to offer, however, is hardly a thing worth trying to shame others for.
valkian
Tfarr, you just don't get it, do you? I love you not despite that, but because of it.
What don't I get?
All I'm saying is that focusing on new games from designers that once - long ago - released some great games that we all love is fine... if they are currently releasing games that are worthy of that focus. If that focus is *only* because of the games that they once made, then it's unjustified. It's fanboyism.
This is especially true when you hold games like Brutal Legend, Insecticide, Costume Quest, DeathSpank, up against other new titles that are actually worthy of focus and praise.
I think that both Ron and Tim are hilarious people. Tim in particular is a really funny writer. I've just yet to be convinced that in the world of game design they can excel in a genre other than adventure games.
icanseestars
Double Fine dont make PC games, by that I mean they do not make games in genres traditionally associated with the PC.
Pyschonauts, Brutal Legend, Costume Quest are all very much console games derived from genres on those platforms like platformers and old school SNES RPG's
Other than some strange fanboy entitlement that their games should be on the PC, I dont see any major financial reason for doing so, the games that sell best for the PC are ones built for it in mind first and foremost, Double dont do that and never have from the outset.
Yes you can sell a lot of games on the PC but the kind of games Double Fine makes wont sell that much.
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000203.htm
Pyschonauts, Brutal Legend, Costume Quest are all very much console games derived from genres on those platforms like platformers and old school SNES RPG's
Other than some strange fanboy entitlement that their games should be on the PC, I dont see any major financial reason for doing so, the games that sell best for the PC are ones built for it in mind first and foremost, Double dont do that and never have from the outset.
Yes you can sell a lot of games on the PC but the kind of games Double Fine makes wont sell that much.
Gabez
I agree, tfarr, and that analogy is very accurate.
Remi O
I'm calling BS on this statement, be it an opinion or otherwise. Neither Brutal Legend nor Costume Quest received glowing reviews here. If you had read the articles, you'd have known that. Both games actually fared better in mainstream reviews.
The Death Spank games received higher praise, mostly because they're excellent games. Doesn't matter if Ron Gilbert was involved or not; the writing was excellent as were the visuals and audio.
Of course we'll give a lot of coverage to games from LEC designers of yesteryear, but you're off on the "lip service" claim.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I enjoy this site and visit it pretty much everyday. It's just my personal opinion that regardless of how highly or poorly Mojo rates games like Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, and Death Spank... the fact remains that the site talks about them - a LOT.
It's also just my personal opinion that the focus on these titles isn't justified or earned. To focus on them just because the lead designers are LucasArts veterans is a silly reason.
Aside from my personal opinion, there is sales data that indicates that some of these titles were not very successful. Granted, sales aren't a100% indicator as to the quality of the game (as low sales could represent a marketing failure, for example)...
From Wikipedia regarding Psychonauts:
"Despite the game's critical success, its sales have been lackluster. Although the game was cited as the primary contributing factor to a strong quarter immediately following the game's release, a month later Majesco revised their fiscal year projections from a net profit of $18 million to a net loss of $18 million, and at the same time its CEO, Carl Yankowski, announced his immediate resignation."
From Wikipedia regarding Brutal Legend:
"According to the NPD Group, Brütal Legend sold approximately 215,000 copies in the United States in the month of October 2009, with about 150,000 copies being for the Xbox 360 platform, making it the 12th top selling game in that month. These numbers were not considered to be strong, and was attributed to the difficult marketing of the game, which emphasized Jack Black's involvement and the heavy metal nature of the game, but did not assert what the gameplay would actually be like, with the possibility that the mention of the RTS elements of the game would have possibly driven more players away from the game."
They don't have sales data for DeathSpank.
I guess my point is, in my opinion it all just feels like free advertisement and well.. the blogging equivalent of a handjob for a boyfriend that twenty years ago was awesome.. but lately has just been barely interested in the relationship :P
elTee
Oh, come on... we shouldn't be blindly promoting these people just because they sometimes think outside the box. When they're good, they're good, and when they're not then we have to say so.
I know! Hence why I said, "More often than not". :)
tfarr
I'm just saying that *in my opinion* this site gives the games released by designers such as Tim and Ron a bit too much praise, solely because of the games that they once made.
I'm calling BS on this statement, be it an opinion or otherwise. Neither Brutal Legend nor Costume Quest received glowing reviews here. If you had read the articles, you'd have known that. Both games actually fared better in mainstream reviews.
The Death Spank games received higher praise, mostly because they're excellent games. Doesn't matter if Ron Gilbert was involved or not; the writing was excellent as were the visuals and audio.
Of course we'll give a lot of coverage to games from LEC designers of yesteryear, but you're off on the "lip service" claim.
Kroms
It's worth remembering that even a failure by one of Mojo's guys - Schafer et all - is worth praising because more often than not, it is an interesting failure.
Oh, come on... we shouldn't be blindly promoting these people just because they sometimes think outside the box. When they're good, they're good, and when they're not then we have to say so. Financial statistics are kind of irrelevant when it comes to the question of "is this a good game?"
tfarr
There are a ton of games out there (non-adventure games) that are amazing works of art. Just to list a few from the past ten years: Kotor, Portal, Mother 3, New Super Mario Bros for DS, and BioShock. To me, it just seems odd that the only artists really being celebrated are ones that long ago worked on Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, and Grim Fandango. And in my opinion, some of the games that these designers have made since those classic titles aren't even good games in their own right.
I really don't know what you're trying to say. The games Mojo covers are based on a certain set of criteria, and that criteria does not include: "This game is good." A Phantom Menace pod racing game is relevant on Mojo (even if you won't catch us writing about it); a Zelda game is not. Just because I love Zelda and Mario doesn't give me the right to start making posts about them on a site that is expressly for games made by certain studios or people. Mojo is what it is, and it isn't anything else, even if The Tingler can't help but occasionally confuse that by pointing out discounts to Machinarium. I find it hard to believe that someone who's been reading for years would suddenly not understand why we're not discussing Bioshock.
MarioColbert
I can't say "we" without feeling like an arrogant usurper, and I'm glad one of the big boys addressed this properly.
I do agree with Kroms on the point that just because Schafer's not making the type of games you personally like tfarr, you can't just dismiss the games he's done with Double Fine with the logic "I don't like these games, so obviously no one does". I can't stand sports games for instance, but I hear they're quite popular in certain niche circles.
Kroms
It's important to remember that the site was originally a Lucasarts fansite; it later mutated into a LucasArts+veterans site, and not everyone on staff thinks that's a good thing.
Thank you! I can't say "we" without feeling like an arrogant usurper, and I'm glad one of the big boys addressed this properly.
Kroms
Look, I'm with you: there are LOADS of excellent designers and companies out there. Valve, Jordan Mechner, Team Ico and Fumito Ueda, Eric Chahi; the list goes on and on. But these guys never worked on a LucasArts game before, so they don't fall under Mojo's jurisdiction.
Not to mention that the aesthetic debates of the videogame art works would render such wide coverage impossible. I'll happily drink Jonathan Blow's Kool Aid and play Super Meat Boy until my fingers literally hurt - but would I expect all Monkey Island fans to do the same?
There's little reason to try to make a website for all things amazing, because you either get all-inclusive and let the quality suffer or you select a criterion for jurisdiction (Kroms' word) and stick with it.
If anything, IHOM is unique in its celebration of individuals rather than companies, or even IPs (though both obviously are getting plenty of love 'n all). So yeah, this is the place for everything Schaferian, Gibertesque, Grossmanian, Tillering, and everything in between (Ahern, Levine, Purcell). Do keep in mind that the respective families of the LucasArts veterans are constantly growing, and since Costume Quest and Stacked are still talked about (neither are Schafer's games proper) maybe Lee Petty and Tasha Harris will get their share of love around here...
Provided they release all that stuff on PC, of course.
tfarr
There are a ton of games out there (non-adventure games) that are amazing works of art. Just to list a few from the past ten years: Kotor, Portal, Mother 3, New Super Mario Bros for DS, and BioShock. To me, it just seems odd that the only artists really being celebrated are ones that long ago worked on Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, and Grim Fandango. And in my opinion, some of the games that these designers have made since those classic titles aren't even good games in their own right.
It's important to remember that the site was originally a Lucasarts fansite; it later mutated into a LucasArts+veterans site, and not everyone on staff thinks that's a good thing.
Look, I'm with you: there are LOADS of excellent designers and companies out there. Valve, Jordan Mechner, Team Ico and Fumito Ueda, Eric Chahi; the list goes on and on. But these guys never worked on a LucasArts game before, so they don't fall under Mojo's jurisdiction.
It's worth remembering that even a failure by one of Mojo's guys - Schafer et all - is worth praising because more often than not, it is an interesting failure. Not all risks pay-off, but all are worth applauding.
I also kind of disagree that subsequent games aren't any good. Brutal Legend is mentioned as being actually disappointing, but I don't know why. Gamers and the gaming press have this ridiculous idea that anything that gets below a 9.0 sucks, and forget that a 5/10 is supposed to mean "average". 8/10 isn't that bad; neither is Brutal Legend, though it could have done away with the slow, frustrating missions and polished up other elements and battles.
Kolzig
awesome games with a PC feeling.
What the hell does that even mean?
tfarr
I'm not saying the site shouldn't cover non-adventure game news. I just think it's choice of which designers it follows comes off as fanboy-ism to me.
I personally loved Psychonauts and I'm definitely not alone, most of the internet loves that game, however I will criticize Brutal Legend along with its most fervent haters - and yet I still would go back for more (would that were possible for me right now).
MarioColbert
I think you accidentally stumbled onto IHOM from Adventure Gamers, and assumed the two were similar. I'm going to go on a limb here and state that the very LucasArts fanboyism that permeates this community ensured that there were more than just adventure games being discussed (Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, to the best of my aging recollections was covered in detail here despite being a Tomb Raider-esque thing of the early days of action-platforming).
I'm not arrogant enough to speak on behalf of mojo, but I'll say that as a reader and fan, their efforts to be an artist-celebrating platform is what attracted me here in the first place.
I've been visiting Mojo forever... as far back as when the ScummBar was still a very active site. I'm just saying that *in my opinion* this site gives the games released by designers such as Tim and Ron a bit too much praise, solely because of the games that they once made.
There are a ton of games out there (non-adventure games) that are amazing works of art. Just to list a few from the past ten years: Kotor, Portal, Mother 3, New Super Mario Bros for DS, and BioShock. To me, it just seems odd that the only artists really being celebrated are ones that long ago worked on Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, and Grim Fandango. And in my opinion, some of the games that these designers have made since those classic titles aren't even good games in their own right.
That said... I follow Mojo because of the adventure game content that is still posted (mainly TTG and the occasional Autumn Moon related post).
I'm not saying the site shouldn't cover non-adventure game news. I just think it's choice of which designers it follows comes off as fanboy-ism to me.
Maratanos
Sorry, but you can't blame everything on the publisher here. E.A. Partners published Brutal Legend, and they also published DeathSpank. So... yeah. Clearly it's possible for developers to ensure that their titles that are published via E.A. partners end up on PC.
tfarr
adventure game ... adventure games ... SCUMM classics of yesteryear? ...had an adventure game element to it ... in the genre that I'm interested in.
I think you accidentally stumbled onto IHOM from Adventure Gamers, and assumed the two were similar. I'm going to go on a limb here and state that the very LucasArts fanboyism that permeates this community ensured that there were more than just adventure games being discussed (Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, to the best of my aging recollections was covered in detail here despite being a Tomb Raider-esque thing of the early days of action-platforming).
I'm not arrogant enough to speak on behalf of mojo, but I'll say that as a reader and fan, their efforts to be an artist-celebrating platform is what attracted me here in the first place.
tfarr
One thing I have to ask... is why this site focuses so much on Double Fine's games at all? Yes, Tim is a hilarious guy and a great writer. Perhaps he's even a great game designer. But <dramatic pause> he hasn't released an adventure game since Grim Fandango.
ThunderPeel2001
Well, if counter-arguments aren't being accepted, I'll just say: "I disagree with your opinion."
On the other hand, I don't know if this lends itself to a full counter-argument, simply because you'd have to take the stance "I don't want Double Fine's games on PC" which would be akin to saying "I don't want any more of LucasArts' classic adventures on Steam". Anything else I'd imagine would simply be a general argument about gaming, which wouldn't really make it Mojo-relevant.
So any point in particular?
Schafer must return to the PC. I will not be happy if the unannounced Ron Gilbert Double Fine game will be a console exclusive game with no PC version. At least I can finally play the Deathspank games. That makes me really happy right now, awesome games with a PC feeling.
tfarr
These games aren't adventure games. It just seems... I dunno... like lip service to promote them so much. And why? Just because Ron and Tim both were major players in the SCUMM classics of yesteryear?
This may (or may not) shed some light on what Mixnmojo's "mission statement" is for you. We are not an adventure game website, but a LucasArts one (or, since 2004, "LucasArts+"). The common thread in the games we cover is certain studios and individual developers, not genre.
tfarr
One thing I have to ask... is why this site focuses so much on Double Fine's games at all? Yes, Tim is a hilarious guy and a great writer. Perhaps he's even a great game designer. But <dramatic pause> he hasn't released an adventure game since Grim Fandango.
Probably because Mojo isn't just an adventure gaming site. If you want just adventure games, go to Adventure Gamers.
ThunderPeel2001
Well, if counter-arguments aren't being accepted, I'll just say: "I disagree with your opinion."
If you want to make an article out of it, we'll publish.
The Tingler
Just remember... OPINION PIECE! :D
Well, if counter-arguments aren't being accepted, I'll just say: "I disagree with your opinion."
I have to put Death Spank in the same category. These games aren't adventure games. It just seems... I dunno... like lip service to promote them so much. And why? Just because Ron and Tim both were major players in the SCUMM classics of yesteryear?
I remember when Psychonauts came out. I didn't research it all that much, but I remember getting a sense (mainly from the coverage on this site) that it had an adventure game element to it. I was really disappointed by that game when I bought it, as it seemed like just a platformer.
I guess I'd care more about Double Fine's games being released on PC **and Mac OS X** if and when they start making games in the genre that I'm interested in.
Kroms
1.There's probably some logic as to why their games aren't being released on the 360 quite yet.
2. Why aren't you saying they should be ported to Mac?
3. I don't think your backwards compatibility argument is going to be valid for much longer.
4. And while some games may have tanked on one platform (Darwinia+), their success on other platforms varies wildly. Darwinia and Darwinia+ are hardly a general rule.
5. Finally, Brutal Legend was NOT a "disaster".
6. I think your argument tastes a little too much like PC fanboyism.
7. Assuming Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft do the smart thing.
1. I forgot about CSI, but then most people do. I think Telltale have realised that Microsoft really haven't got behind this whole episodic thing.
2. Fair point, but I think Macs in general still aren't really considered massive games machines (unlike other Apple products like the iPhone). Either way, remember this is my opinion. The same argument could be made of the Wii.
3. I'll believe it when I see it. The PS2 had full compatibility, the PS3 ditched it (apart from a few early models). The 360 only ported over certain games it felt like. The Sly Collection is from one of Sony's major developers who are making a sequel - and most importantly, they still chucked it out without warning and didn't supply review copies. So far we've only had major, popular games coming out or just being resold - not EVERY game gets chosen. You think Brutal Legend will get a re-release?
4. Of course. My point is that it's not always Release Game On Console, Get Better Sales. I know this, do publishers? Also the Darwinia guys made the comment "if you're an independant developer and you're not on Steam, you're making a big mistake" or something like that.
5. After all their advertising I'm not sure that's true. Alpha Protocol sold pretty well for example, but SEGA still cut it completely loose the minute it was out. They had the main advert on the E3 building. They spent a fucking load on that game. And unlike every game Tim's ever made, the negativity of the word of mouth on that game was incredible. Even now the best you can do to avoid being flamed in other site's comments is to sheepishly say "I thought it was alright".
6. Coming from the guy who can't play Costume Quest right now. :) This is totally an opinion piece, this is not an unbiased article, but everything I said I believe was valid. The customers are there, the future proofing is there, the market is there. I'm just worried that publishers are too wary of what they perceive as Double Fine's track record. We know otherwise, but do they?
7. Huh? And whatever this point connects to, that's not exactly guaranteed is it?
Just remember... OPINION PIECE! :D
But hey, you know what?
Why aren't you saying they should be ported to Mac? Mac has every single advantage you gave the PC, including and up to Steam.
I don't think your backwards compatibility argument is going to be valid for much longer. The console companies have seen how much money they make off of downloadable space; efforts are being made to re-release gems from past generations (Sly 1-3 just hit shelves). They might stall; they might want you to buy games you already own, at first. A VHS-to-DVD-to-BluRay sort of thing. But they're smart, and I'd say they know that downloadable space, at least, needs to always be accessible.
And while some games may have tanked on one platform (Darwinia+), their success on other platforms varies wildly. You know this. Darwinia and Darwinia+ are hardly a general rule.
Finally, Brutal Legend was NOT a "disaster". They made a profit; it just wasn't the GTA-killer they were hoping it would be.
I'm sorry, Chris. I just...as much as I would like to see all games on all the consoles I own (and I would love to see Costume Quest, PixelJunk, Castle Crashers, Limbo, GameDevStory, etc on the PC), I think your argument tastes a little too much like PC fanboyism.
Assuming Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft do the smart thing.